After nearly 23 years at Unite Students, the United Kingdom’s largest student accommodation provider, Joe Lister moved from the role of CFO to CEO in January 2024. In this interview, he discusses how his mindset and perspectives regarding leadership have shifted, how he deals with mental health and wellness, and what it’s like managing a wide range of stakeholders. He also shares how he built out his executive team, what he looks for in future-ready leaders, and his advice to someone stepping into the CEO role for the first time: get match fit.

Below is a full transcript of the episode, which has been lightly edited for clarity.

Welcome to The Heidrick & Struggles Leadership Podcast. Heidrick is the premier global provider of diversified solutions across senior-level executive search, leadership assessment and development, team and organizational effectiveness, and culture shaping. Every day, we speak with leaders around the world about how they are meeting rising expectations and managing through volatile times, thinking about individual leaders, teams, organizations, and society. Thank you for joining the conversation.

Chantal Clavier: Hello, I'm Chantal Clavier, a partner in Heidrick & Struggles’ London office and leader of the Real Estate Practice, placing both C-suite and non-executives in the industry. In today’s podcast, I'm excited to speak to Joe Lister, CEO of Unite Students, the UK’s largest student accommodation provider, delivering a home for success to more than 68,000 students in 155 purpose-built properties. Joe has now spent nearly 23 years at Unite Students, moving from the role of CFO to CEO in January 2024, and we are here to talk about his first year as CEO, the observations, the learnings, the sentiments.

Joe, welcome and thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. Firstly, how are you?

Joe Lister: I'm feeling good. The sun is shining. It feels like winter may be finally away from us, and there are signs of spring coming.

Chantal Clavier: Very kind of you, as we're sitting in a very small room with zero windows. But yes, I'm with you. So, as we think about this podcast, it’s all about, you know, your first year as CEO, so we’re delighted to sort of be here today because you've been in situ for just over a year at Unite Students. CEO—chief executive officer—has that always been an aspiration for you, Joe?

Joe Lister: I have to admit that it hasn't, actually. My dad was a managing director of an engineering business, and so business has always been in my family and the way I've been brought up. And I used to love going into his office and mainly just to draw on the whiteboards when he was doing some work. But I'm the youngest of three boys, that's made me super competitive, but I've always had to work hard for my victories, sort of fighting against the two bigger ones in the family. But it’s also meant I'm quite happy to play second fiddle to them, you know? And so being a CFO for a number of years, I was very comfortable in that role, supporting, being part of the leadership team, and it wasn't something I ached for at all.

But I guess having played a lot of sports, I usually ended up as captain at the end of the day, and that was when I felt really comfortable. When I was in the team, I felt assured of myself and wanted to lead from the front with assurance. And I think the CEO element is sort of, kind of, I draw that same analogy on how I've got to this position. And now I'm in it, I'm actually really enjoying it and thriving in it because I feel like I absolutely deserve it.

Chantal Clavier: Interesting. I want to touch on a few things that you've sort of brought up there. So you're absolutely loving it and thriving in it. Tell us why.

Joe Lister: I think it's just the challenge and the step up. It really has been a stretch, the constant thinking process, the constant element of where we're taking the business, what we can do. The energy of working with great people every day, being able to meet the best people in London and wider around great minds, and just getting to do some fascinating, interesting stuff which is, you know, a real privilege to be able to do.

Chantal Clavier: What was the shift in mindset for you as you went from CFO to CEO?

Joe Lister: Yes, I think I was about as lucky as I could have been in terms of a handover. I've been at the business forever, and I've been CFO for nearly as long. I've got a really supportive Board. The former CEO, Richard Smith, was very kind and gave me time to build my team and to think about where I would play and what I would do. So that run-in was kind of about as good as it could get.

I think that probably the biggest shift for me, though, was recognizing—and this was from working with a mentor and a coach—about thinking, ‘Do only what I can do.’ And that was a really good kind of thing in my head, just to say, you know, we've got 2,000 people in our organization, but as a CEO, there are certain things that only you can do. And then focusing on kind of where we want to play, setting the standards, where that bar sits, setting the culture of the organization—those are things which really I am in the position to be able to think about. So, coming away from that day-to-day element of what we've been doing and being able to sort of play in that space has probably been the biggest change for me.

Chantal Clavier: So, ‘do only what I can do.’ So, in a sentence—perhaps that is your sentence—but thinking about then, how do you spend your time differently, what is that?

Joe Lister: The biggest thing is I'm facing out much more than facing in, and whether that is speaking to our teams, as I say, we've got 2,000 people, and they do look to the CEO in a very different way than they look to a CFO. They expect more of me, but you know, that's something which I'm happy to step into. Working with our university partners, so Vice Chancellors, spending a lot of time with them. I was up in Newcastle yesterday seeing the Vice Chancellors of both those organizations, doing things like this, you know, doing things with the press. You know, and it's that element of [being] the face of the organization and stepping into that space, and, you know, that's probably been the biggest change for me on a day-to-day basis.

Chantal Clavier: And as I think about perhaps you with a different hat on, so you as a family man if I was to ask your family what's been a visible change that they've noticed of you as you've taken on the CEO mantle, what words might they use or what sentences might they use to describe a shift in you?

Joe Lister: I'm very lucky that I've got a caring, loving family who sit around me. I've got three daughters who are either at university or have been through university, but they're pretty brutal in their feedback to me as well. They keep me straight, they keep me very honest. They've come up with a nickname for me, which is “CE Joe.” So whenever I get slightly above my station, they sort of tell me to stop being CE Joe at home. But they've always been a wonderful leveller for me, you know, they've got no cares about how good or bad your day was. They just want to jump on top of you and run around and play a game and do something, and I love that, and they've still been able to do that.

So I think actually I would think, and I really do think they would say that not much has changed; that I've been able to, and I've been incredibly lucky through my career, that I've been able to park work at work and not think about it too much at home. Maybe when I'm lying in bed early in the morning, but generally, I don't think about work at home when I get in the evening and I can be there and be part of the family. And, you know, I think that's because they keep me honest and they keep me straight and they wouldn't let me have it any other way.

Chantal Clavier: It sounds very grounded. Particularly when I think about you know, leaders and leadership, it can be quite isolating, especially in today's ambiguous world. Everything's changing all the time. Every morning we wake up, there's a different headline, isn't there? How do you chill out, Joe? How does Joe relax? It sounds like you can cut off quite nicely, but how do you relax?

Joe Lister: Yes, as I say, that my family's sort of where it starts and they are that great leveller and we spend time together and, as I say, they definitely ground me. I've got a great group of friends locally who I spend time with. And I've learned from a young age that it doesn't matter where you come from or what you do, it's how you connect with people. And those people that I've ended up, you know, in random situations, playing sports, having the captain of my team as the builder who used to pick me up in his van and take me to training because I couldn't get there on my own, you know, and he was one of the people that I've always looked up to in my life. And I think having that group of friends—and I still go running and cycling and play a bit of tennis. I'm a farmer at heart. Both my grandparents were farmers, so I grew up on various farms, driving tractors and looking after animals, and so I still do play around with that a little bit at home as well. So you might find me on my tractor mowing fields, just chilling out and thinking about what's going on in the world.

Chantal Clavier: So it's not just CE Joe, it's farmer Joe, too, is it?

Joe Lister: Yes.

Chantal Clavier: I love it. You touched on people as being a big part, whether it was family or friends or, indeed, that wider community. Let's bring that back to Unite for a minute, then, and think about your Executive team. You too also mentioned culture, so talk to us about how you've built that community then within the business, and what that means to you.

Joe Lister: I'd start by saying that Unite has always had a very special culture, and I think that's because we are so lucky to be working with young people at a really exciting time of their lives. We always make a point as a leadership team of going out and helping with check-ins. So you've got hundreds of students arriving at a building, usually the first time they've ever left home before, that mixture of excitement, fear, anxiety, you know, whatever from the student. The parents are there with probably more fear and worry, and that sort of sense. But the sense of occasion it just is so infectious.

And it is the best day of the year on Unite’s calendar because you just see all those raw emotions, and you realize the responsibility that we have as an organization in that you're kind of housing—looking after may be too strong a word—but we are home to those people for a year as they leave home. And we all think about our own kids when we go through that moment. And that culture, that creates this sense of people who work at Unite and who are touched by that, will go the extra mile—and they really do. And I think that sense of working with young people throughout the year, and they have their highs and their lows, but it really does create an environment. So we then, and I've always sort of—that's one of the reasons I've stayed at Unite for as long as I have, because I sort of feed off that, but trying to build then our culture of the leadership team around that.

I guess the other bit, which I think is incredibly powerful, is that we're a business that has grown very rapidly, really. You know, we were founded in ’91, floated in 2000, we're now a FTSE 100 business. And that creates opportunities, and I have felt that, and that's helped my career development because every year, you get a bigger, better, more interesting challenge, and you either step into it and grow. So the culture is something about really building off those two pieces of energy to help people to sort of see (A) you're playing a really important part in helping young people at a critical part of their lives, but also (B) you've got this great opportunity to develop yourself and come to Unite, spend six months to six years to 20 years, but be the best you can and take something with you. So yes, I feel the culture is very special and something which I really want to nurture and carry on building, because I think that's what makes us special.

Chantal Clavier: Do you think it's evolved over the last year that you've been in post, you know, if you think about it?

Joe Lister: Yes, I've definitely consciously been trying to focus on allowing teams to come together more and that sense of team being the place where you can get things done and you can get things done more effectively. To do that, you have to have a feeling of safety and psychological safety, where you can talk to each other very openly, you can disagree agreeably, and that sense that together we will be stronger. And that's something which I've been trying to instil from the board discussions, through to the Exec, and then right through the organization. And I think then the other element is to create a one-team culture across the business. Now that's a bit harder to deliver when you've got a lot of people, but we've got two distinct, quite distinct businesses, one being a property development business and one being an operational business. And they actually have quite different cultures, people, you know, ambitions, goals. And so, often I've heard, you know, people throwing mud at one or the other. So bringing those together is sort of part of that broader ethos.

Chantal Clavier: I mean you've been within the business, as you say, sort of 20-plus years – 23 years, I think. If, and therefore you've had that dual track, OpCo, PropCo. Do you think somebody coming in from a PropCo directly and never having had that OpCo experience, do you think it's harder to truly get under the skin of the business, or is it something you can kind of pick up in the first year?

Joe Lister: It's definitely different. So people that do come in from a traditional real estate background go wow, this isn't kind of what I've been used to. And I think that, and the importance of that operation element to what we do, then how you bring that back into control and managing the assets, is something which people have struggled with at times. And I think people sort of either, they either get it or they don't. And so people can have been in for 12, 18 months and gone: do you know what, this isn't for me, I'm going to go back to more traditional real estate which is, you know, that's just where they've come from and where they feel more comfortable. So yes, it is different.

Chantal Clavier: What's the obvious difference, as you think about that, or what's the biggest difference?

Joe Lister: I think the way we work is much more—it has to be—much more integrated than you'd have in a traditional real estate firm. So, you're not just managing an asset which one person can do and they have full or, you know, a big group of assets. You have to work with our university engagement team, with our sales team, with our operations team, with the estates team, and you don't have line control over those people. So it's a way of influencing, working with, collaborating in a softer way, rather than just the telling, you know, ‘I'm in full control and I can make this happen by enforcing.’ So, that sort of softer element of influencing is critical to being successful at Unite.

Chantal Clavier: Wellness and mental health, it's something that impacts each of us today; we're so much more aware as individuals of mental health and wellness, and so are businesses. Talk to us about how you deal with wellness and mental health within Unite as Chief Executive.

Joe Lister: Probably the most visible is actually with our students, and this is something that we've seen change even over the last five years, the number of mental health challenges that our students have and come to us with, has grown exponentially. And we work with the universities—we don't try and fix that ourselves, but we're more of a signposting organization. But in signposting, you have to have your teams open, ready, listening, and aware, but they have to deal with some pretty challenging situations, you know, that students are going through. And so actually , a lot of the work we do is about then supporting our teams because it's one thing supporting the student, but that puts a huge strain on the teams who are looking after them. And they're often, often in their 20s, it can be their first job and they're having to deal with some tough stuff. So I take that responsibility of looking after our teams who are looking after the students incredibly strongly. And actually, sometimes we get a bit of challenge back from universities saying you're not doing enough, but actually, I've got to look after my teams as much as I need to look after the students. And sort of getting that balance is, it's a real sort of challenge and fine line which we need to tread carefully.

Chantal Clavier: So, lots of stakeholders, is what I'm hearing, Joe.

Joe Lister: Yes.

Chantal Clavier: Lots and lots of stakeholders across different demographics, different age groupings, too. I mean it's the parents that are fundamentally paying the bills, I assume, and then it's what I term children. I'm sure they didn't want to be called children, but they're students who are there and living within your accommodation. And then, as you've just pointed out, 20-something-year-olds could be having their first job with Unite, and all the way up to your Board. So, you've got a real range of backgrounds, of people, of ages, of, a group that has come together fundamentally but is very varied, very diverse.

Let's think about students and that group for a moment. What's been the biggest learning for you as you think about the students that you service, and maybe even those 20-year-olds, 20-something-year-olds that are in your workforce, because it's almost that reverse mentoring going on. So, as CEO, what's been your sort of takeaway? What have they taught you, perhaps?

Joe Lister: Yes, for the students, I just see that level of energy and desire to go and experience stuff, but also that it's hard work as well being a young person today. And, you know, we quite often hark back to what it was like when we were there and don't they know how easy it is, but I don't think that's very helpful. I think actually young people have a very different experience to the ones that I had, certainly, and so trying to relate what I had to what they have isn't helpful. So it's really understanding the challenges that they've got.

My daughter was part of the Covid generation at university, so she went off to university and we were pretty much straight into lockdown. So, she was in a flat with her eight other flatmates, not allowed to go out, not allowed to see anybody else, and you think about what was that like—but she had the best time. And when the second lockdown came, she made us drive back up the next day to make sure she was locked down with her eight people, rather than with the five of us at home.

Now, maybe that says something about me, but it's just sort of showing her experience. So kind of the bit I've taken is we have to listen to the generation, listen to those people, listen to the challenges that they're facing, and respond to those, rather than trying to sort of create something which is monolithic and never changes because I think it is hard being a young person today and I think they've got their own challenges. I'm a great believer that they've got huge talent, they've got huge energy, and fundamentally, we're all reliant on the young people, you know, for sustaining the world that we live in, the way in which we live, and so let's help them.

Chantal Clavier: Yes, quite. It makes me think about new technologies coming through, too, as you think about AI, sustainability, things that clearly over the next week, month, year, 10 years, you know, they're very immediate and we don't quite know what they mean, how they're going to impact us, or indeed how they are already impacting us. We're still sort of feeling that reverberation. As you think about your business, as you think about the generations you've got in your business, where are you pushing or what's important as you think about certain topics—whether it is AI or sustainability or buildings—what is front of your mind as you think about innovation and change?

Joe Lister: Yes, the AI question is one I think on, you know, in the heads of all of us really, about we know there's so much power there, we know that there's so much benefit that can come, but it's unlocking it in ways which are understandable, meaningful and deliverable. And so I think for us it's probably small steps, and starting there and then continuing to evolve. How that plays into our business, how it continues to make us more efficient, how it allows us to offer a better place to work for the people that come to work with us, you know, and you're right that that generation will work in a different way to the way that we work. They learn differently to the way we learn and are much more immediate and faster-paced, and so everything we do around AI needs to carry on evolving in that way.

But yes, it's so early in the journey that it's kind of—I struggle to sort of see what it may be and sort of head towards it, but I can see how we can make some small steps year on year, and hopefully we'll learn from each other. So I've just actually been on a study tour to the U.S. So I went over and spoke to three or four student operators over there to see what they're doing, because they are ahead of us, it's a bigger sector and they've got some great ideas of what they're doing. And sharing best practices from some of those guys has been, we've come back really, really excited about stealing with pride from what others are doing, particularly in that space of AI.

Chantal Clavier: Are you allowed to give us any hints as to what that might be or is that still top secret?

Joe Lister: It’s still top secret, I'm afraid, Chantal.

Chantal Clavier: Joe, as you have pointed out, the future is still quite unknown and you're taking small steps within Unite. As I think about businesses and their top teams, it makes that Executive team around the CEO ever more important. What were you looking for in your team members as you built out that team?

Joe Lister: Yes, I guess this starts from a place that I know that I can't do everything, and I don't want to do everything, and I can't control everything. So, for me to have and to be able to operate effectively, I need the right people around me, and that means that I need people that I can trust. I need people who will talk openly, who will challenge me. I do like challenge. I need people who don't have an ego, who aren't there sort of promoting themselves over the team. And so I also recognize that I've done my best work personally when I've been given a really clear remit, and then the space to go off and deliver. So that's very much a part of the way I look to set up the people that work with me and within my team. And then, you know, just bringing it back to being a human being, that I've had some of my most fun times in my life when I've been part of a team and I've shared successes and failures together. And so, why not do that in the work environment? If you can create that sense of togetherness, then you can achieve much greater things.

And so it's about thinking of those key fundamentals that I want within the team, but then it's about how we work together and how we sort of get that alignment coming together, spending proper time together. You know, we're quite lucky, we're a UK-based business, we're not travelling all over the world. So, we all pretty much live along the M4, so getting together once [every] couple of weeks and, you know, having—we have an open discussion for a couple of hours when we come together: What's on our minds? What are we thinking about? What's hot? Where do we need to focus? And we find that's probably the richest time we have together, rather than when you've got a detailed agenda and you're running through points and trying to figure stuff out. And that moment actually is very helpful then in creating moments of ‘let's go where it's hot.’

Chantal Clavier: The people's centricity point, very much at the center of, I think, a lot of this discussion, Joe. So just to recap, as you reflect on our conversation today, how would you summarize, I suppose, the biggest lessons you've learned so far as CEO?

Joe Lister: It's fast. Yes, the pace is relentless. And everyone warns you and everyone tells you it's going to be different, but until you feel it, you probably don't understand that—or I certainly didn't. And it's varied, you know, I jump from—I get a complaint from a parent because their hot water is not working in their flat, through to a conversation with a Vice Chancellor about spending £400 million on a new student village, you know, and that can be one to the next.

So that sort of, being able to be flexible and adaptable and move from one thing to another. And the bit that probably saddens me a little bit is people look at me differently within the organization, you know, that badge is very much there. And even within the senior team, people I've known for a long time, you know, and it's the downside of authority, to me, in the hierarchy of organizations, that there's just a little bit more of a barrier than there was before. So, I've just got used to that, I guess.

Chantal Clavier: And what advice would you give to someone stepping into the CEO role for the first time?

Joe Lister: Get fit. Get match fit.

Chantal Clavier: What does that mean?

Joe Lister: Get physically fit. You know, I think for me, energy, you know, that point about being fast and relentless—the energy is needed. And so sleeping well, eating well, exercising has been really important to me, and something which I look to sustain.

Chantal Clavier: More so than a CFO?

Joe Lister: Yes, I just think that pace and that it's the sense of being pulled in different directions and then being able to cope with that. Again speaking to one of the many people I've spoken to about this, is they say keep 10 percent in reserve, because you never know when you're going to be needed to step into something with even more energy. Which was a great piece of advice that I think that she gave me. I think thinking about the team that you want and you need, and being really clinical about going to deliver against that. And, you know, getting the right team onboard to create that culture that I need was probably the biggest thing I did in the run-up to being CEO and I'm so glad that, so glad that I did. And yes, I'd still maintain that, think about only doing what only you can do.

Chantal Clavier: Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you here today. I love the magical 10 percent piece of advice. I can imagine our listeners taking that away as a gem that will sit with them as a rule. Just thank you for taking the time.

Joe Lister: Thank you very much.

Thanks for listening to The Heidrick & Struggles Leadership Podcast. To make sure you don’t miss the next conversation, please subscribe to our channel on your preferred podcast app. And if you’re listening via LinkedIn or YouTube, why not share this with your connections? Until next time.

About the interviewer

Chantal Clavier (cclavier@heidrick.com) is a partner in Heidrick & Struggles’ London office and leads the Real Estate Practice in Europe and Africa. She is also a member of the CEO & Board of Directors Practice.